Meeting between Dmitri Sunshine and Ian Crafford — Full Transcript
Date: March 16, 2026 | Duration: 63 min | Speakers: Ian Crafford, Dmitri Sunshine
Ian Crafford: This meeting is being recorded. Hi, Dimitri. How are you?
Dmitri Sunshine: Good. Hey, you doing this morning?
Ian Crafford: Great.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah. Beautiful office. That’s. That’s your real background, huh?
Ian Crafford: It is, yeah. You know, this my. Just my home office. I’ve got an office down. You’re. You’re in Colorado, right? In Boulder?
Dmitri Sunshine: I’m in Boulder, yeah.
Ian Crafford: Yeah. Okay. I’ve got an office in Littleton as well.
Dmitri Sunshine: Okay.
Ian Crafford: Which I don’t, I don’t is shift workspaces in Boulder. I know that they’ve got several locations in Denver.
Dmitri Sunshine: I don’t think so. I don’t know. Anybody going to shift.
Ian Crafford: Yeah, it’s awesome, man. It’s. It’s really nice. I think there’s like three or four. I’ve worked out of the one in downtown Denver, like Golden Triangle area for a few years and now I’m at the one in. In Littleton. But yeah, this is the, the home office.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah. Sweet. Oh, good for you. And it’s. Is that sound canceling panels in the background?
Ian Crafford: These are. Yeah, yeah.
Dmitri Sunshine: Okay. Beautiful. Yeah, I probably need to. I’ve got like 20 foot ceiling. It doesn’t make any sense, but it.
Ian Crafford: Yeah. Are you at home at a workspace or what?
Dmitri Sunshine: This, this is my home. Yeah. That’s one of those weird, funky 80s houses where I don’t. I think they, they thought it was cool at the time. And then in reality it’s like, oh, yeah, that’s a huge waste of space.
Ian Crafford: Yeah. Times have changed. It’s funny when, when we were moving up here, looking at homes, you could like place what area they came from based on, you know, the wallpaper choices or if there was wallpaper versus paint and then ceiling heights and things like that. And then some of them. I forget what neighborhood it was down here because at the time I didn’t. Didn’t know any different, but there were some that even had. It must have been like the 70s where there’s like that drop the step down into like a seating area. I was like, oh man, you would never see this. Not only is it a waste of space, it’s like an impossible hazard for children and all kinds. Yeah. Pretty hilarious.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah. By the way, where did you. You said you guys just moved here, right?
Ian Crafford: Oh, well, not just. We’ve been to. We’ve been in Colorado for six or seven years at this point. I wish I’d been here for, you know, 40 years, but. Can’t choose your parents, right?
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, Yeah, I hear that. Yeah. I’ve got a similar regret. My. My ex. Wife and I did a Road trip where we did kind of like scoping out all the cities on the, you know, starting. I mean, we were on the east coast, we were in Atlanta, and so we were looking for something more west coast vibe. Boulder was like, second pick, but Portland just like, won out because we had a kid and we wanted to give them the whole cultural experience.
Ian Crafford: And then.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, I think Denver was just like, a little too intimidating for us because we wanted to live, like, close to downtown and bike everywhere. Yeah, yeah. But I kind of regret it, actually. I mean, I actually do regret it a lot. I think this would be an amazing place to land in like, 2013.
Ian Crafford: Oh, man. I mean, hindsight’s 20 20, but if you could be in Colorado like 15 years ago, it’s the time. So. Yeah, that’s what I mean. I. I bike commuted for a couple years and still occasionally down to shift. So it’s doable. I. It’s more doable in Boulder.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, definitely do. I mean, Boulder’s its own little. Like, I don’t. I don’t know if people outside of Boulder feel this, but, like, you know, there’s that little crest. You’re coming in.
Ian Crafford: Yeah.
Dmitri Sunshine: And it’s just like the valley opens up and to me, it’s like something shifts. Like, I’m always like, ah, okay, I’m back. Like, kind of release tension. Yeah, it’s. I don’t know. It’s a weird thing. It’s. It makes it hard when people are like, why aren’t you coming down to Denver? Like, we have these events. I’m like, yeah, because. Because I’m in my bubble.
Ian Crafford: Yeah, Well, I mean, it works the same way if you’re in Denver and people are like, oh, yeah, we got this thing going in Boulder. You’re like, ah, you know, I mean, I love, I love Boulder, personally. When you’re. When it’s work stuff, like, I have. I have people frequently tell me, like, oh, yeah, I’m in Denver. I’m like, cool, let’s meet. And they’re actually in, you know, Parker or Castle Rock. They usually will say Castle Rock, but, like, sort of south Denver.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah.
Ian Crafford: And we’re down there all the time. For. I. I’ve got two kids and they’re big into baseball. And so there’s. There’s nothing happening in the city. Right. It’s all south or north, and so we’re down there. But I’m just like, for work stuff, they don’t want to come to the city. And I’m like, I really don’t want to Drive, you know, that really out of Denver, period. So there is that once you’re in kind of your community, there is that piece of like. Yeah, it’s just not really worth it.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, yeah.
Ian Crafford: Especially when you could do this. Right. Like there’s. There. It’s different to be in person. I recognize the value of that. But if like, hey, let’s get coffee. It’s like, how about let’s just do a zoom meeting and you know, maybe we’ll meet later. Yeah.
Dmitri Sunshine: Speaking of which, do you know about the proximity events that Brian Matibo puts on?
Ian Crafford: I do not.
Dmitri Sunshine: Okay, so they’re once a month meetup, they happen between. They kind of alternate between Boulder and Denver. And the Denver ones are down at the Hangar Club. You know what that is like in Cherry Creek.
Ian Crafford: Yeah, yeah.
Dmitri Sunshine: But really cool group. It’s a. Brian’s a wealth manager and has just kind of amassed quite the collection of people. But really sweet. And I love that the, you know, typically you go to these networking events and it’s just like a free for all. It’s like grab your drinks and just talk to whoever. This one, actually one of his, I guess, assistants. This gentleman is really good about getting people into these kind of games where it’s like you get into a group and you really get to know each other in that group and then you get to come up and present of like, what’s the, the commonalities between you? Right. And so it’s just fascinating because it’s almost kind of put you back into kind of like a little, you know, school project. It’s like, okay, we got to put together our like, you know, pitch or whatever as a group that we just met. But it’s, it’s super cute. I. I gotta send you a link to that so you can check it out if you’re open.
Ian Crafford: All right. Yeah, man. I love that I’ve. One of my goals this, this year is to get more. Like my work for 15 plus years has been all remote, all virtual, and so I rarely have I had clients in physical proximity. And so this year I’m making a concerted effort to try to just build whether. Whether they become clients, we work together or not. Just, you know, build a. A professional community that’s actually geographically proximate, not just with overlaps and skills or interests or, or whatever. So easy to do online now that’s kind of how. How I’ve run my business for, for years. And I’m like, man, it’d be cool to have people to go to events like that with.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah. Yeah. It’s really. Yeah. And it’s hard to find ones. I mean, I’m. I’m kind of picky about it because I just. I don’t want to be in some really loud, crowded place and talking to someone where you get stuck and you’ll like. There’s not really a connection in the proximity. Once it was funny, they did this thing where it’s like, okay, mountains or beach, pizza or salad. Right. And so it’s like, by the end of this, like, this route, you’re like, oh, cool. Like, I’m in with my peoples. Right. That’s how you end up with your, like, group of three to four people, because you really got, like, segregated based on your interests.
Ian Crafford: Yeah.
Dmitri Sunshine: But, yeah, so, yeah, I’ll shoot you over that and hopefully get to meet you at one of them. Yeah, that’s one of the few things I make it down to Denver for.
Ian Crafford: Okay. And are those just in Denver? Is there, like, a Boulder chapter, Boulder contingent as well?
Dmitri Sunshine: It just alternates every other month. Is the other one. Yeah.
Ian Crafford: Nice. All right. Yeah. You happen to know the gentleman who runs it. His name. Do you know what firm he works for by chance?
Dmitri Sunshine: You know, a lot of the wealth management firms just have, like. It’s. It’s called Strong Haven. It’s actually a pretty good name. That’s a. Yeah, he’s a. He’s a big, strong guy. Like, when I, you know, it’s like, you know, see him again, give him a hug, and you’re just like, holy. It feels, you know.
Ian Crafford: Yeah. Nice. I was just curious. You’ve got pretty deep exposure to the different. I mean, the wealth management space is so stratified based on the business model and. And, you know, other things. So sometimes there’s a really tight overlap where I’m like, oh, yeah, I know those people or have connection to them. And then there’s other parts of the industry where I really don’t. But I was just curious if I didn’t recognize the name, but maybe the firm. But it’s not ringing a bell either. So be curious to connect with them and see. See what the model is.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, it’s a small firm.
Ian Crafford: Curious.
Dmitri Sunshine: So are you. Are you work. Is that your niche or who do you niche with?
Ian Crafford: No, that. That’s my. My history. And then actually now my. My wife works in private equity, but her. Her private equity firm invests in a very specific segment of registered investment advisors. And so I still have. Even though I’m no longer in the industry, still have, you know, Deep understanding of kind of what’s going on. And especially in a market like Denver, they have, I think they have one Colorado firm that’s in, in their portfolio that has a Denver office. But it’s just, I just kind of keep up with it through that. My, my people are more on the 1 to 10 employees starting service professional service businesses. So consultants, coaches, developers, agencies. I mean the agency space is being dramatically disrupted and rightly so in my opinion. But they’re still potentially a fit. And so that my like I’m kind of horizontally positioned rather than vertically in an industry. And so it’s really, that’s the type that needs or potentially needs the operations work that I do, fractional leadership and systems installation and all of that. So that’s another reason why I like the geographically proximate community would be cool because since I’m not in an industry, I know a lot of different people and it really enjoy connecting people across industries. But I don’t have that kind of. Oh yeah, the wealth management events and calendar, annual calendars, you know, my social calendar.
Dmitri Sunshine: Right, yeah, yeah. Well that’s fascinating. So my, my goal is actually to niche down in the wealth management space which is really challenging as you know.
Ian Crafford: Right.
Dmitri Sunshine: It is, you know, very trust based. That takes a while to, to get in. But for me it’s kind of this long game of, you know, I can work with anybody with this skill set. And especially as you know right now it’s like everyone’s trying to implement AI in different ways. So it’s like well who do you want to spend that much? Because I think a lot of people think of it as like this genie. And they’re like well I just rub the lamp and I tell it and I’m like no, no, no, there’s like, there’s a lot of foundation we need to lay down first. And they’re like oh, I didn’t realize there’s going to be all this work involved. Right. But so it’s like who do we want to spend that much energy with? And for me it’s the, the wealth management world like estate attorneys, RIAs. But it’s because long term what I would love to launch is a, it’s a foundation called Lasting Legacy foundation that’ to kind of be this trim tab in the, in this huge generational wealth transfer that we’re having right now. I don’t know if you know the numbers, but it’s like, you know, the kind of agreed upon one is the 84 trillion over the next 25 years is being transferred and like 80% of that wealth is going to be lost by the end of the second generation and 90% by third. So it’s, it’s a mess. Yeah, that and I think a lot of people who I’ve spoken with, I’m like, well like you don’t have kids. Like what are you doing with your, you know, your estate? I’m just going to leave it to this nonprofit that I really like. I’m like, have you talked to them? Do they know that you want to do that? And they’re like, no, I just wrote it in my will. And I’m like, they might not be actually accepted. Right. It’s like that’s a huge problem. It’s like so for me what I see is that there’s an opportunity especially for the long tail approach for the people. And it’s crazy. There’s, I saw a stat that’s like 34% of Americans over 65 don’t have a will or something like that. It’s like anyways, a lot of people just, it’s, it’s a mess. But if you can come in and say, hey, if you can donate it to our nonprofit, you could still get this tax write off. We could do a retained life estate, you can continue living in it and then once you pass away based on your, your most passionate causes, we can do grants to those in a perpetual model from le out the property. Right. This is something that most nonprofits just, they won’t even consider because they’re not operational savvy at all. And so this is something that for me I’m like, oh yeah, if you take a scrappy star approach, there’s so much possible and it’s going to make the largest impact like from a, you know, if you’re an individual, typical American that’s got, you know, the million dollar house and that’s the biggest part of your estate.
Ian Crafford: Right.
Dmitri Sunshine: That to me feels like such a big way to shift things around and be able to employ like higher standards of like, hey, we’re, you know, you can’t use toxic pesticides or can’t, you know, like have a higher standard for stewardship of the land. So that to me is where I would love to get to. That’s the, you know, the long play. And so right now it’s like, okay, how does my current skill set and this need that exists right now, how does that fit in? So trying to take steps there.
Ian Crafford: So I mean, are you, does that non profit exist right now?
Dmitri Sunshine: No. This to me feels it’s that bhag, right? That big hairy, audacious goal that.
Ian Crafford: Yeah. But it strikes me that we don’t need to go too far afield here. I’m just curious. I mean, plan giving companies and foundations exist and you can like, if that’s what you want to do, you could start doing that right now and embed some of your skill set and services into that. I mean, obviously you have to get paid, but generally speaking, there’s a management fee or there’s some. I mean you’re almost. In one sense, it’s the same model as a, as a registered investment advisory firm or it’s assets under management or what have you. You have to set up the legal structure so that when they donate the estate or the house or the asset, whatever it is, that there’s a way for you to both administer it and collect fees on it and you know, appropriate and transparent way. But those, those legal entities already exist.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah.
Ian Crafford: And so, you know, it might not be that distant if that’s really what you want.
Dmitri Sunshine: Thank you. I appreciate that, the inspiration.
Ian Crafford: Yeah. Well, I’m just curious why like I’ve got a friend that runs the, I don’t know what is the Colorado or the Mountain west or something chapter of NCF National Christian foundation and that’s their entire business, frankly is like, you know, he consults with and with generally entrepreneurs who have these valuable assets, whether they’re companies or you know, personal property or whatever and helps them do. Exactly. What you’re describing is put together a plan to a. There’s a real service to the entrepreneur founder today which is dramatically simplifying their financial life, especially the charitable giving and stewardship portion of their life.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah.
Ian Crafford: Where now NCF is issuing them one tax form every single year. Right. Instead of all the rest of it, then they’re also managing those assets and they’re managing them for. With a vision beyond their career trajectory or even, you know, end of life transition where it’s like, hey, you, you donate this stuff. We continue to operate it and generate, you know, perpetual. As long, as long as the asset is producing revenues, then we can perpetually support these organizations. And the, the donor still has, it’s the donor advice fund model. They still have the ability to direct the funds, but the infrastructure of the organization simplifies everything and, and separates it from that individual which has tax implications and all the rest. So I mean, that model exists and the CFP or, or somebody like, you know, who’s in wealth management is probably familiar with that already.
Dmitri Sunshine: Beautiful. Well, I Love this. I’m so grateful that I got to jump on with you this morning to, to get that. I mean that’s like the little nuggets that you’re like ah, okay, that’s. Yeah, that may be. I’m looking for the, for the best smart cuts approach. Right. Like in terms of right now there’s, I don’t know if you know about the reg SP requirements that the smaller RAAs are now. So it’s like I think they’re, it’s like June 3rd is the deadline. Hopefully most of them already got it. But it’s like I don’t know if you know, honestly I don’t know enough about the industry know how well people have their together. I know from my experience working with non profits they don’t and they scramble at the last minute. So I’m wondering how much of that is happening right now. And we could come in and kind of, I mean really put our operational expertise hat on to help them get the basics in line. And then it’s like okay, well here’s the next step. It’s like let’s get your business really automated so you’re not having to, to keep doing menial all the time.
Ian Crafford: Yeah. So there’s. In the wealth management industry specifically stop me whenever this is not useful. The part that I’m familiar with, most familiar with are the independent registered investment advisors. Independent RAAs that are, that are, you know, their compliance is different from so like this the CFP part of the world where they have a fiduciary standard. They are SEC oversight is different than if you are a sales commission based advisor. Yeah. And so those two worlds are very, very different. And generally speaking they’re you know, fee only now the fee is based on assets under management usually. But they have a higher compliance standard in some areas because of that fiduciary standard certainly.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah.
Ian Crafford: And those firms will. It’s not to say that there aren’t smaller firms there. Everyone’s got to start somewhere. But basically it doesn’t make sense. The business model doesn’t work for the advisor. Generally speaking to serve clients that have less than used to be a million. Now it’s usually more like sort of small firms or 2 million kind of assets under management minimum. And most of them are significantly more just because as generational wealth, not generational wealth. That’s wrong. As, as the generation who currently holds the wealth has aged, their wealth has skyrocketed because it’s been tied to assets and assets have inflated so much above you know, the Market, Right?
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah.
Ian Crafford: And that’s actually the, the transition problem you talk about the generational wealth transfer. It’s a huge problem in the industry, hence private equity and other people being interested in it. You used to be able, you know, 30 years ago you would sell your firm to your employees. Now the actual valuations and the legitimate real valuations of that business and of that discounted cash flow that your business generates is so high that A, the employees can’t afford it and B, it’s not a good investment.
Dmitri Sunshine: Right.
Ian Crafford: All the growth has sort of already happened. And so hence you have private equity of, you know, minority stake investors who are buying out the founders and allowing the business to operate pretty much as is some of those. Now the issue in that segment of the market, if you want to help them become more operationally efficient, is it’s very much a small network. Right. Like there are people who kind of do that. They’ve, they’ve got legacy systems. There’s a huge compliance overhead. Like there’s all, all kinds of things. So the upside is once you’re in there, you can build a really valuable business. Downside is maybe harder to break in, especially once you get private equity. You know, they already have their solutions that they just sort of plug in or those solutions available. The smaller end of that market is a great opportunity. There’s still independent firms that want to at some point be acquired. So an advisor who’s in their 40s or even 50s may be a target on the, I don’t know the commission based side very well, but that’s where I think you would have a whole lot more people who are just behind on things and don’t know, they don’t have the systems and processes set up and would need like immediate help. Where it’d be more like a productized service of hey, you pay us, we do these things. And now you have, you’re compliant, you’re efficient, you’re whatever. And it’s sort of like a, you build your own subscription book of business essentially. Yeah. Which of those markets are you trying to serve?
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, I would love to get into these smaller RIAs, like the ones under 1.5 billion assets under management, because they’re the ones that have like these new regulations.
Ian Crafford: Okay.
Dmitri Sunshine: But those regulations did come out, forget like September of last year is when they were formalized. So hopefully people have already jumped on it. But I don’t know, I mean, this is where I have to kind of have to be really humble with like, okay, you’re starting over, right? It’s like you’re kind of coming in from scratch into this, this world and trying to be as AI native agency as possible. But so much of this is still like, you know, building the relationships and that AI is terrible at.
Ian Crafford: Yeah, interesting. So tell me a little bit about what, I mean, what you do. I, I did some research. Well, more accurately, I had an agent do some research, but got a pretty good rundown. I thought of, of what you were doing. But as you’re describing sort of transitioning or starting over in, in this space is are your services changing or just kind of the market that you want to serve?
Dmitri Sunshine: So for full transparency, I mean I, I’m coming out of a startup that. It’s my startup that failed Match Keys was meant to be this AI super connector essentially. Imagine like next time you go to a conference you could see the top 12 people you should actually connect with and then afterwards you could see it’s like who, you know, who has these offers and needs because each conference or each group is kind of its own mini community and I think they do a terrible job of being communities anyway. So that, that’s something that’s essentially on ice indefinitely. And so this is for me like going back to my roots of like, I know how to operationalize, I know how to do, you know, this level of very high risk technology. So this kind of like, okay, this and feels like there’s such a strong need for it right now and that and then seeing it’s like, okay, long term. And I’ve had this vision for lasting legacy since I don’t know, 2022. And it’s always been one of those things of like, you know, maybe one day kind of thing. Right. And I talked with a coach and he was, you know, he was asking about the BHAG and we got into those things. Like no, I think you can like start to make a wave. It’s like figure out what, what is that going to look like, you know, because it may not be direct. And I think that’s what I’m hearing from you too. It’s like there’s these indirect routes to get there.
Ian Crafford: Yeah, I mean you could go direct too. But one thing I would highlight is that it sounds like both the audience you’re potentially serving and the value that you add are, are deeply related. If, if you’re talking about legacy, resilience, security, like robustness, like okay one is applied to the technology operating in your business. So you make sure that the asset that produces the revenue is squared away in this rapidly changing technology. Landscape and AI and all the rest. Like that’s a valuable service that some people might want and those founders or owners or entrepreneurs or whoever the market is that you serve. Exact same narrative applies to their personal impact, their personal legacy, their personal vision and goals. So even if it doesn’t exist, or even if you say no, right now I’m just focused on the consulting aspect on technology. I would still talk about the other thing because you can say, hey, look, what I’m passionate about is lasting legacy that shows up in two different ways. Right. We got solve technology problems right now. Resilience, robustness. Make sure that you don’t, you know, foot gun yourself somehow in, in this way and in the meta, you know, and you can spiritualize it if you want. Like the eternal, the, the, or moral or whatever or just hey, your life legacy of what are you going to do next? You’ve been so focused on this. It’s the same, the same narrative, I think. And you know, if somebody’s like, you could even say, hey, this is mine, I’m sharing my long term vision with you. The, the impact that I want to make because I want to, to work with you in the same terms. Right. So I would highlight like operationally, whatever you decide is up to you and probably has a lot to do with where the money comes from.
Dmitri Sunshine: Right?
Ian Crafford: Yeah. In the short term, like let’s not, let’s not hide that fact. But I do think you should probably lead with, with that positioning because it’s the same to me.
Dmitri Sunshine: Thank you, thank you for that encouragement. I’m gonna, I definitely, I have a hard time not going there when we start talking about things because it’s, for me, I mean, I see so much potential for what could happen if we could just have these like trim tabs that kind of steer this massive shift that’s happening.
Ian Crafford: Yeah.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, go ahead.
Ian Crafford: No, I, I, I agree. Yeah.
Dmitri Sunshine: 100. Thank you. I was wondering about this, like when we connected, you talked about you’ve got a, a working group. What is what, what exactly does that look like for you and how, what was your impetus for starting that?
Ian Crafford: Yeah, so good question. It’s super casual. It’s a handful of people at this point and I may, I’m deciding like whether or not I carry on in this route because it’s just, it’s zero prep, zero structure, like we jump on and it’s some aspect of it. These are like partners and clients from my past that I’ve connected now they’ve connected with each other. So part of it Is that community aspect of. Since I don’t have that, you know, local down the street. I mean, we’ve got friends and our neighbors and everything that we, that we spend social time with. But in a work context, this is, there’s some aspect of this being the water cooler. But what I’ve discovered and what I’ve. I frequently run throughout my. I’m going to air quote career here. But through, through my work. Right. Has been what I call study groups. And in fact, I help clients start some study groups that are part of their offer, you know, offer stack that are generating significant revenue now. In fact, one of them is in the RIA space for, for operation COOs at RIA firms. Oh, now that I think of it, yeah. And so that concept of a study group has always been appealing to me because I’m, I’m like, I just hate the marketing hype and like, I like to connect with practitioners and so to just get in there and be like, hey, what’s going on? And somebody can say, well, here’s what I’m struggling with in my business, or has anybody used AI effectively versus just as the genie in the app that you’re supposed to ask questions to? And have found that. I think I can speak for everyone and found that informal but highly purposeful connection to be really valuable because you get other real insights. You get people who, these are not people who are in the same line of business. And so you got a designer who’s like, yeah, that would look a lot better if you just did this, sort of get that kind of free, free advice or input from everybody’s perspective.
Dmitri Sunshine: And so this one, it’s almost like a mastermind in that sense.
Ian Crafford: Yeah, I mean, I wouldn’t object to that. I don’t think apart from how, you know, mastermind as a product or as a sort of offer tier has been so bastardized by gurus.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah.
Ian Crafford: People like that. I’m, I’m fairly. Not fairly. I’m strongly anti guru from my, you know, just by, like I came up. Well, I didn’t come up here, but I did a lot of work for those people in the conversion rate optimization days. And it’s just, it, it’s terrible. Like so many of the practices are exploitative or the, you know, like they’re doing this launch not because they’re making all the money, but because they need to meet payroll and they haven’t paid people for a long time. You know, it’s like, this is not what people don’t need. It’s not that they don’t need information. It’s that information is necessary, not sufficient. And so this whole idea of, like, you can do everything yourself, you can, you can learn everything you can do, it’s like, it’s just not true. And unless you’re going to become an expert in that, unless this is, like, something you’re passionate about. My, my posture is you should have someone do it for you instead of learning how to do it yourself.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, yeah, I, I definitely have an aversion to. I mean, Boulder’s full of these, right? There’s. And it’s full of this kind of. And that’s. By the way, that was my. I’m sorry if I came across kind of course when we connected, because I was like, hey, like, like, what are you pitching here? Because there’s so many people are like, oh, yeah, do you want to do this thing with us? And it’s like, oh, it’s going to be, you know, X amount. You’re like, well, why didn’t you say that up front? Right? So it’s always kind of being. You feel like you’re being led into some sort of funnel. Yeah, yeah.
Ian Crafford: No, I don’t. I’ve got a whole rant that I’ll spare you from, but it’s fit, fit, not funnels. Like, I, my business model, because of how my business model operates. This is the other thing I, I that irritates me about the, like, kind of the guru business model is both what they’re selling and their business models is like, mass market. You know, everything’s a funnel. This is how we see people and we just, like, process them through, like, okay, there’s some aspect of, for your actual core service or whatever, you need to figure out someone to fit and then, you know, sell to them or not sell to them, and they can say yes or no.
Dmitri Sunshine: Right.
Ian Crafford: Like, I’m not disputing that there’s a process there, but this idea of, like, a funnel where we cast this huge wide net, we promise all this stuff, and then we just sort of work people through this, I think is dehumanizing, among other things. But my business model isn’t that. I don’t want huge volume. And so my whole, my entire sales process and all of its absurd genius is to just be completely transparent, to just connect with people and have, like, real conversations. And then if there’s a fit comes out organically, say, hey, this is what I do. If you want to work together, but I’m not connecting with you. Like, if I, if I’m connecting with you because I know you fit already. I’ll lead with, hey, I do this thing, it costs as much. Are you interested? Right. Like, let’s, let’s not waste anyone’s time. So that’s, that’s kind of where I come from when I, when I connect with people, especially people who are like local or quasi local, I’m just trying to, you know, build the network and see where it goes. Frankly, most of my best, like study group people and connections and all that have come from initial conversations where I connect them with somebody else, then, you know, go direct to my kind of services or whatever.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah. So, you know, I know we’re, we’re at time, but I wanted to ask you what, how could I help you? Like, I have a pretty good idea of like, you’re looking for that, you know, one to ten small, almost startups essentially, Right? Yeah. Or just smaller firms.
Ian Crafford: So there’s, there’s kind of two tiers. So I have an accelerator program where the core of what I do is install this operating systems, business operating system that sort of encodes all of the stuff that I’ve learned in building and growing businesses over the last 20 years. And so there’s basically two ways to access that. The accelerator program is a, is a coaching program where I install that for you, step you through the pieces and sort of coach you as you implement the practices. And a lot of that is based on kind of heterodox positioning. Like you don’t need to market to 50,000 people with content because that’s going to stress you out. You’re not going to do it. It’s going to waste a lot of time and it doesn’t work. Nobody reads it, nobody cares. How about instead we have a defined activity that you do once a week. We have a known fit process, not sales process, but how you qualify people and when they’re qualified. You have a known productized offer stack that you say, well, which one of these are you a fit for? Radically simplifies your life. You still have to operate right now if you’re, if you’re the founder or even a small team like, you guys are still both doing business growth, business development and delivery. And so you have to be able to handle all that. Let’s, here’s the structure to do that and then I just sort of coach you through implementing that structure. I’ve recently plugged in friend and former client of mine. We’ll often work on projects where he builds them for me first. And then I’m like, let’s Fix this and this. And then I go and basically go to all my clients and be like, I’m using this and it’s working. You should do this. And so aligned with that is taking the whole marketing funnel idea and turning it upside down. For most of these businesses, if you had a hundred ideal client people with their contact information and the research done on them for a calendar year and you just sent three personalized notes a week, you would have a full book of business. Yeah, so I now have that service that identifies and connects. Well, I pass it through to him, but he has that, where he builds it and plugs that right in. So these people are actually hitting the, you know, the, the lead inbox, if you will. And then we just work the process. So anyways, that coaching offer is kind of the lower tier. And then the fractional leadership is like, hey, I’m going to be hands on, I’m going to do this for you. All the install the business design, the process development, the automation, the AI integration, whatever. And I’m going to run that for you for 90 days. Then at the end of the 90 days you can either hire a co operator, so a fractional CEO, people call them chief of staff, CEO, whatever, you can hire them and they’ll carry on with you, or you can keep me engaged. Although I’m currently full at this, at this tier, but as, as a fractional. And so that’s, that’s kind of the business model. I am working on introducing one thing below that, which this might become. It’s not, it’s not even below that. It’s an adjacent thing calling it the Vector Guild. And the idea is this is a referral network that is private. It is vetted service providers. And instead of you, like, you’re welcome to know the other people in there. And I, I think the study group is actually going to morph into kind of the community aspect of the practitioners in the guild because that part isn’t really the offer. The offer is so, you know, let’s say you’re out there knocking on doors and you’re talking to prospects that you have developed in your own marketing. The everybody, every small service provider that I work with and talk with has some version of a lead generation challenge, right? What do I do? How do I get them? Whatever. Part of the problem with that is that when they have an opportunity that’s not a perfect fit for them, there’s this emotional investment to like, I need to get some money back from this effort. And so I’m going to sell this Project, work with this client, do this thing. I’m going to tweak what I do so it fits this person. And that ends up killing their business and usually not resulting in a great outcome for the. For the client either.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah.
Ian Crafford: So the idea of the guild is that, what if you had a place where you could just refer this person, say, this person’s not my icp, but they need this thing. Put them in the guild. We work with that. With that referred prospect to identify exactly what they need. Have a whole methodology from my background to be like, here’s what you need. Here’s what it should cost, here’s what. And then connect with the guild member who receives it. The receiving guild member pays a portion of the. Of the value of that deal back to the guild, which goes to the referrer. Right. So it’s a. It’s a private referral network, but where you don’t have to do the personal introduction or handholding or analysis or anything like that. And then on the. On the member side, there’s also that community, that study group portion. So that’s new. I think that that is what I’m going to plug in as sort of the. The. The core of the services that I offer to practitioners. Because I have, like, I work directly with my clients, but then I also really enjoy working with fellow practitioners, either helping them in their business or allowing them to. Like, I have a referral program where I pay handsomely if they refer to a client for vector operating system. So that’s kind of the ecosystem when I am, to answer your question, much more succinctly, if you have people who fit my ideal client profile, that’s always an option. And then I’d love feedback on that guild concept. Yeah, because that’s like, that has emerged from my work and I don’t have. It’s not live yet. So I’d love to be able to like, sort of feel that out and. And get some real feedback.
Dmitri Sunshine: I. I feel a lot of alignment with that. That’s actually something I’ve been playing with. I actually back in, like, November. November, October last year, I got struck with this idea of like, hey, there needs to be a conscious Chamber of Commerce. Because everyone I talk to, they. They want nothing to do with the Chamber of Commerce. Like, they’re just in that. They’re like, it’s transactional. It’s whatever. It’s like, it feels like a kind of a bni ickiness to it. And I was like, well, what. There’s more, like, more connectedness and you, you know, you could even share your, you know, like, SOPs and other legal docs that you, you know, it’s like, why are we all paying to get the exact same things over and over? You know, it’s like, how can we come together as more of a community and really explore that? Was hosting like these, like Friday for a little while, but I’ve, I still think this is so needed. And I love the approach that you’re taking to it, that concierge approach of like. Yeah, instead of. Because I think the BNI model is really weird how it’s like you just refer to people in your small group. But if you really were the concierge started to build that relationship, people will go back to that concierge. Right. So, I mean, I think to me this is more than a guild, actually. But maybe, I mean, maybe I don’t have enough experience with guilds to actually know what they’re capable of.
Ian Crafford: Yeah, no, that’s good feedback because I, I, the way that I think of it is that there’s a, there is that practitioner to practitioner, you know, open source, sharing resources, whatever. There’s the referral aspect, which is you deserve to get, if you develop a lead in your marketing, you deserve to get paid for it if you refer to somebody. But this gives you access to a whole slew of service providers without them being personally in your group or network or whatever, like bni. And what hit me when I was working with his name is Philip Morgan Opportunity Labs to develop that lead list service is we should bundle that and have guild members get leads that they can work independently, but then also the guild itself. So like, he and I, or I, I really could build out the operation to be constantly marketing for leads, the guild and work directly with the prospect. And then so if somebody comes in and they need your services, then we just refer them, you know, straight to you so that the guild is actually being active rather than just the network. So, you know, the network’s a key part of it and the referral aspect. But, like, what if that guild also working on your behalf at all times? And I think that the way that we buy and sell technical services is just insane. Like, I have another rant called the prospect paradox, which is if you can’t do it yourself, you’re not qualified to buy it. And that’s why I have, I mean, I’ve worked with clients before. I’m like, look, I’m just going to be basically your buyer’s agent because you’ve come to me saying you have two quotes that are literally an order of magnitude different and you have no idea why or what that means or which one you should buy. And so what happens is the buyer ends up wanting to pay this like weighted average just because they feel like that’s safe. And they’re like, oh, we’ll go somewhere in between, but we don’t really know. And the projects never work because they don’t know what the scope is. They don’t understand the technical side. And then at the end, everyone’s pissed. The agency or the developer, whoever, is like, they were the worst client. We over serviced them and you know, they’re still unhappy. And then the, the client is sitting there going like, we didn’t get what we wanted, it didn’t launch, it didn’t work, or whatever. And I’m looking at it going like, you guys are all right and wrong. You know what I mean? You probably understand that with like the resilience and the, the tech background, like, you can see the problem, project scoping and how it’s disconnected from business outcomes. And that lack of clarity means that people pay way more, they get worse outcomes, and everyone’s unhappy at the end. And so the concierge, I love you use that word because the ability to potentially sell directly to the buyer and say, listen, you don’t even have to pay us. We’re just going to do this work on your behalf and then we’ll refer you to the right service provider with a pre. Scoped, pre. All the discovery is done. Like, how much would you as a service provider love to take a project where you don’t have to do discovery?
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, yeah. And that, and I think also keeping each other accountable, that to me feels really important. Yeah. Being able to have that, that community where it’s like, if there’s a dispute arises, I mean, this is where it gets interesting. Right? It’s like, then how do you handle the dispute process? And. But, you know, whatever, you have mediators that come in and that’s part of the agreement that you sign. It’s like a client disputes something. You have to go to our mediator. So having everything in place, I mean, that to me feels really exciting. So, I mean, I would love to maybe even just have another call about this, see how I could help you with this. Because this is something that feels like very near and dear. I have. I mean, Boulder is, you know, it’s like such an epicenter of fractionals, you know, and just coaches and people who just would love to be part of this. And at the same time, you know, it’s like, how do you, how do you develop that trust? And I mean, this is where it gets back to. It’s like, okay, what’s the ethos behind this? Right. Because if it’s just people who are being transactional, like I want to get in because I want to make money instead of like, I want to be part of that, what I would call the, the rising tide that lifts all boats. Like that to me gets really exciting. Right. It’s like, okay, we’re all doing better. We’re all stepping up our game thanks to this and having the system. We’re all such a contributing to the system, which I think is the essence of the guild. Right?
Ian Crafford: I mean, absolutely. Yeah. And that would be. So to me, the key lever there is going to be how you vet potential members.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yep.
Ian Crafford: And part of that is like, you know, like you may come across a prospect in your marketing where you’re like, this is not a fit for me. And I don’t even want to refer this person into the guild because I think that they’re, you know, they’re not ready or they’re dishonest or like I get bad vibes. Like, whatever it is, we want some aspect where it’s not transactional, where they’re like you’re saying where you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s purely transactional. We want it to be like, no, you’re referring somebody because you care about their outcome and you realize that you’re not the person who can deliver the outcome that they need. For whatever reason, they’re not a fit. They need a different service, a different type of firm or something like that. So yeah, that’s the vision. I’d love to do a follow up call just on that and get, you know, pick your brain because I think designing kind of how that, how we communicate that and then how that gets, how that invitation gets extended to people to source the right providers. Yeah, it really is. Is the, the key part. Yeah.
Dmitri Sunshine: And I think that’s the, that’s the only way to really stay in the game. Well, without this constant hustle. Because what I see with a lot of my friends is kind of this feast, famine cycles. Right. It’s like, oh yeah, you had some great months and then now you’re like back to just kind of that like I got a scrambled network. And
Ian Crafford: I mean I see that too but like so often that’s one of the main pain points that I sort of speak to. But when you see it like from from your perspective, what’s the cause or what is the origin of that feast and famine cycle? What are, what error are they making that causes that?
Dmitri Sunshine: I think that’s at its essence, it’s self limiting beliefs. Like I have a really good friend that actually would love to pull into this, but I can’t, I can’t have them be a partner on it because there’s just so much of like, no, we can’t charge that much. I’m like, why not? He’s like, because like we just, we’re not at that level. I’m like, well what’s, I mean, why. It’s like what’s stopping us from leveling up to charge that much? He’s just like, well I’m just. Anyway, so the feeling that I get is some people just don’t have that, that ability to step in, to play higher and, and that. And I think one of the ways that you can see that besides having the conversations is you can see how it’s a broad offering. They’re not willing to realize I need to like niche down of like I only work with these people or only offer these packages. Right. It’s kind of like I’ll do all of it. And that to me, I mean, I get suspicious when someone’s like, we’ll do your marketing, I’ll do your operations, I’ll do your tech. And you’re like, that’s such a different array of skills.
Ian Crafford: Yeah, well, the irony too is those two things are deeply related. Like that scarcity mindset, the inability so, so the imposter syndrome of like not wanting to step into charging higher prices or take that kind of responsibility is I, I think the exact same relational and emotional problem that causes the I won’t niche down because they see, well, they feel like if I do that then I’m limiting my opportunity. I’m limited, limiting. Even though actually the two are in fact it’s the opposite. So yeah, that’s really interesting and interesting to hear you like lead with that because I think I see two kind of categories. One is like the human factors. And for me, some of the work that I’ve done, hobby work and personally is like I see attachment issues and sort of like, you know, relational human factors. Like you can, you can work with somebody on that, but you have to work with them in a coaching capacity on their story and on what’s actually going on at the identity level. Like that’s got nothing to do with business. Then in the other category, there’s the business side of I See that feast and famine crop up sometimes when people are like, it’s usually client concentration problems as well. They land a couple of big projects and now they switch mode from business development, business growth to 100% delivery and they’re overwhelmed and all of that, where they stop doing all the things that generated new leads and new pipelines. So that project wraps up and then they have to start from scratch. And so when you average, when you average the income over time, it’s like, oh, you made great money for three months or whatever that engagement was, but pretty mediocre or even poor money over the six or nine months it took you to get another one of those deals. And so how do you like. That’s one of the pain points I sell against for the Vector OS is like, no, you have to be able to operate in the business. The delivery of client success simultaneously with working on the business and pipeline, business development, all that stuff. So it’s kind of just those two buckets. But it’s really fascinating how you treat like I can fix the operational one, but most of the time I’m not sure that’s the real problem.
Dmitri Sunshine: So you do some coaching in there too.
Ian Crafford: I would love to do more of that stuff. To be honest. The. I don’t know how to sell that effectively. Not because people don’t need it. I don’t, I don’t know how to. Because it’s a chicken or the egg thing. Right. The people who need that help also can’t pay what it’s worth. You know what I mean? And so it’s like, I can, I can lob all this information at you, I can give you this stuff. But what you actually need is a relational encounter, like a one on one coaching or a small group coaching engagements where you experience this relational encounter that creates the transformation. That’s integrated information. Right. There’s a whole epistemological dogma behind that, but it really is like even neurobiologically, like you do not change just because you know something new, like new information. You need to have that applied and integrated for you to then show up differently. And that takes a level of investment from the practitioner that most of those people are unwilling to make because they still have the scarcity mindset. Right. It’s kind of that catch 22.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah, yeah.
Ian Crafford: To answer your question, I would love to do more of that. I just don’t know how to do that effectively, you know, at scale. And maybe it’s on the, maybe it’s on the guild practitioner side. You know what I mean, like it’s sort of bundled in and for free. Hey, if you struggle with these things and we’re going to do a, a working group or community meeting on, on this.
Dmitri Sunshine: I don’t know, I mean, having it be segmented where you can have almost like that men’s circle part. Right? Because I think that’s like, when you get into coaching, I think you do have to break up gender wise. But that to me is also, I mean, where, yeah, I’d be willing to pay more to be at different levels. Right. And that’s what I would hope is that you’ve got these different levels of the guild where it’s like, it’s easier for people to come in. But then if you want to uplevel either your. I mean, this is what I had kind of come to with this, this Regenerosity Society because it was all about. It’s like, how do we help each other with this concept? And it was essentially like either you pay to be at the higher tier or that you’re doing so much within the community. Right. You’re doing all these referrals and so you can uplevel that way. It doesn’t have to be just paying because some people, you know, they’re just like, I, that’s a, I never pay that much for anything. Right. But anyways. But yeah, I mean there’s a lot here and I would love to see this come to life and would love to be part of it and would love to see what, what your working group is like. And I, I actually, I love stepping more into the facilitator hat. So if you’re looking for co facilitators, happy to do that. My wife is, she’s a hypnotherapist, but she’s, she’s just done a lot of facilitation of events and so I’ve learned a lot from her side about like how intentional everything has to be, you know, just don’t let it be organic. And the more I’ve done that, I’m like, oh yeah, it produces so much better results. Also, I’ve been doing well, let’s say I’ve done a few of these authentic hikes. I don’t know if you know Bart Foster’s business outside hikes. By the way, Boulder Startup Week is coming up May, mid May. We got a baby due, then I won’t be there. But like, if you’re able to make it, definitely check it out. I was going to do a hike there, but I’m like, I have to find somebody who could back me up if I go do this one morning. But essentially, I mean, imagine authentic relating prompts with spending 15 minutes with each person. And you also have very clear, like, what I did was, like, seven minutes per person where the other person just listens so you don’t get stuck where, like, you just, you know, you get a rambler. Like. And I. I loved going with, like, really hardcore questions of, like, you know, what are you running away from by working so hard? Like, the shit that, like, a good coach would ask you because it just caught people off guard. They’re like, o. Wasn’t expecting to answer that right now for a person I just met. Yeah. But doing that hiking, that’s something I want to get back to now that we’re coming out of winter. And because I. Every time I go to a networking event, I’m like, this is. This is just abysmal. Yeah. Yeah.
Ian Crafford: I absolutely love that. So many aspects of that. I have to jump because I have another call. But thank you for going over. Yeah, absolutely. This has been. Been wonderful. I do. So I do want to follow up on the Guild, specifically. I would love your help kind of, you know, fleshing that out. Wilderness retreats. Sela Wilderness Adventures is a group that I’ve done some stuff with. That’s awesome. And check out longertables.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yes.
Ian Crafford: Do you know Longer tables?
Dmitri Sunshine: I haven’t done it yet, but I’ve. I’ve heard great things about it.
Ian Crafford: Okay. So I’m. I’m good friends with Tim, the guy that. That runs it and all. We have so many conversations about all of these things you’re talking about. And the amazing thing is when you have a stranger, but you spend a few minutes asking a real question, like, we often emerge from those encounters feeling more deeply connected with that person than with somebody you’ve worked alongside for 20 years, but, you know, have a. Well, what’d you do this weekend? Where do you want to go to lunch today? You know, all the. Right.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah.
Ian Crafford: Not that that stuff doesn’t matter, but it’s not the stuff that creates connection and belonging and. Yeah. So check out longer tables. Not. Not because there’s anything, like, actionable there, but just because I love the concept of what you’re talking about, of sort of marrying that relational encounter experience and methodology that’s purposeful with something like a hike in the community of fellow practitioners or business owners. I think you put that, like, those would be my people.
Dmitri Sunshine: Right.
Ian Crafford: So if we put. Put that group together somewhere, I would love to, you know, Be the backup leader or whatever it takes in Boulder. And then even, you know, if you want to go vice versa in. In the sort of Denver area, we’d love to talk about that as well.
Dmitri Sunshine: Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, Ian, would you like to pick another time and, like, a week or two out?
Ian Crafford: Yeah, let’s. Let’s just do that now.
Dmitri Sunshine: Awesome. Love it.
Ian Crafford: Congratulations on baby, by the way.
Dmitri Sunshine: Thank you. Yeah, this will be the. The third one. Third son.
Ian Crafford: All right, well, old hat now, so. Yeah, it’d be like in the 1950s, you don’t even go to the hospital. You’re just like, whatever. See him when he comes home, right?
Dmitri Sunshine: I wish. My wife is 43, so she’s. She’s a little more concerned. But, yeah, the last one was a home birth, and that was. That’s. That’s. That was actually a different partner, not a wife, but. Yeah. Anyway, that’s a whole other topic. Yeah.
Ian Crafford: Yeah, no, I’d love to hear about your family, man. How about. What do you have Tuesday, the 24th?
Dmitri Sunshine: Let’s see. I mean, to be honest, I think the best way, if you look at my. That calendar, scheduling link.
Ian Crafford: Okay.
Dmitri Sunshine: Whatever you see, open is fair game. And 24th. Yeah. Is completely. It’s very open for me right now, so happy to. To jump on anytime.
Ian Crafford: Okay. I’ll book something here shortly.
Dmitri Sunshine: Awesome. Awesome.
Ian Crafford: Ian.
Dmitri Sunshine: It’s been. This is better than I could have ever imagined, so thank you.
Ian Crafford: Good. Yeah. I enjoyed it, man. It’s good to meet you and look forward to the next one.
Dmitri Sunshine: Yeah. All right.
Ian Crafford: See you soon. See you.
Dmitri Sunshine: Ciao. Bye.